ForumsSoftware ← Kaivo/Aalto via OSC - FR

been playing with both Kaivo and Aalto some more via OSC and thought id put together a few FRs that hopefully are relatively simple to implement :)
(well I can hope)

  • Configurable OSC port, so I can run both Kaivo and Aalto at the same time on a split,
    and also more than one patch (e.g. lead + pad) (K+A)

  • more voices, (say 8?) in Aalto (A)
    (I'm running in Vienna Ensemble Pro, which nicely load balances)

  • Pitchbend range for OSC (K+A) , i know its in the osc message BUT its nice to have alternative ranges for different patches. so configurable you could the incoming fractional offset perhaps as a multiplier? (K+A)

    .. i currently have this in my OSC interface, but it cannot be stored 'per patch' (K+A)

  • envelope x Vel* , in osc mode should be x Z (as we have no access to sustain) (K+A)

  • CC support for OSC, or additional 'osc controls'
    the drawback with OSC mode is it only has key support, albeit in 3D.
    however, Id like to use a breath controller/strips as well for more global control, e.g. say reverb level, I can see this would be useful in the soundplane too, as you may have a number of 'zones' defined for the soundplane as a slider for such things. (K+A)

longer term wishes :)

  • gate output, and trigger input for Aalto (A) (as done in Kaivo)

  • voice per channel midi, I like OSC, but voice per channel is more standardised, e.g. linnstrument/continuum also support. (K+A)

  • modifiers for signals, multipliers/additions/lag ... see u-he bazille for the idea :) (K+A)

  • envelope x Vel
    Q. Am i correct in saying when you put connect more than wire to an input it sums?
    (its what it seems to do), it might be nice to have multiply as an option?
    then we could do envelope x Z ourselves
    (UI: perhaps clicking on the input level, changes colour and so mode between add/multiply?)

Im really enjoying both Kaivo and Aalto, absolutely love the way they allow us to control the envelope directly, really is a unique feature

hope the soundplane build is going well,

Hi Mark,

I'm glad to hear you've been diving deep into Aalto and using the OSC features! Glad that not only Soundplane owners are finding OSC useful. Thanks for the feedback.

I can definitely add some of these features when time permits.

note-per-channel over MIDI is already implemented for the next release.

Yes, outputs from the patcher are summed. Your multiply idea is intriguing because I've been wanting to add multipliers but I like the current complement of modules, especially in Aalto. I'll think over the ramifications.

cool, note per channel will be very useful.
(perhaps also 14 bit midi CC & velocity?)

but I'm happy with t3d due to higher accuracy , would be nice to have support for slider zones though :)

summed outputs, yeah summing is also useful, and I wouldn't change as Im sure many presets depend on it, hence the idea of changing the input 'mode'.
(ok it would be nice to able to do wire1 * wire2 + wire 3, but to be honest, its too complex, so i think either sum(Wire 1..N) or product(Wire 1..N) is fine)

I agree the about the current complement of modules, theres enough for so much flexibility, without being daunting. its hard to see how you can add more to Kaivo/Aalto without sacrificing the UI..... (u-he bazille is a bit daunting at first)
only thing i can think of is having some advanced modules on another tab? perhaps with input / outputs on the sides of the patch bay?... but perhaps a V2 thing, that I'm sure you already have many ideas for :)

anyway, not a big thing, i think theres plenty of opportunities in Aalto and Kaivo, without more complexity.

Ok, more playing yesterday... and some fresh ideas :)

x/y/z and pitchbend curves.
Ive just implemented these in my T3D drivers for the eigenharp, as sometimes you want subtle effects, other times you want more drastic changes.

the reason Im posting here, is perhaps this should also be available per preset rather than at the controller level.

(my current understanding is aalto/kaivo have linear modulation inputs, and I think the soundplane supports a curve on Z, and some quantisation on pitch?)


for 'more' percussive sounds, its useful to have a concave pressure curve,
but on a string/pad sound a more subtle linear/convex curve might be better.

similarly if I'm pitch bending for more 'continuous' type sounds, a linear curve is appropriate, but perhaps on more conventional (say a piano variant) a more concave curve - this becomes very interesting as well when we use larger pitch bend ranges.

of course these are obvious ones, but even when modulating cutoff/q etc curves are useful.

here, i do recognise the differences between the soundplanes ( & continuum) continuous surface, compared to say and eigenharps (& linnstruments) key approach with an offset. ( i think curves may be also useful with midi CC too)

(I wonder even with a soundplane, if often players would on some sounds want a more subtle pitch bend to help stay in pitch, but still allow pb with a more exaggerated move)

I do recognise the danger of introducing complexity in the UI e.g. one could argue for all inputs could have curved response, rather than putting them on the outputs.
so im not sure how/if this is something you think is worth the investment on.

anyway, as I says I've done it in the controller software, so more just a thought, about what is appropriate at 'preset level' vs controller level

an aside...
Geerts implementation of midi mapping in EigenD is interesting to look at, which you might want to look, might spark some ideas for the soundplane.

basically for every plugin parameter (or midi CC/at etc), you map it to an input (or >1) (e.g. key roll) then you can supply scaling/bounds inc mid points/inversion etc, and now in 2.1 (not in above manual yet) also a curve.

its complex, but its amazing how tuning these parameters can affect the way it feels to play certain vsts/presets... i often fine tune these on instruments I'm really keen on and use frequently.

of course with the soundplane this could be done by using Max, but i thought Id share, as its the same kind of thing I'm doing with the soundplane controller interface.

Just to say that thanks to thetechnobear, I am using Aalto with the Eigenharp pico and I am finding them a great combination. I am demoing Kaivo at the moment as well.I have a question is the level module limited in its dynamic range or is it my inexperienced programming? ( I wont be offended )

Anyway one of the things I would like to support is some sort of X pressure object that is mentioned above. It would greatly expand the expressivity.

One of the things I like about the Eagenmatrix is the ability to scale the touch dimensions for the sound. I am not suggesting anything as involved as on the continuum but perhaps a right click on the patch cables to bring up a scale/curve dialogue for that connection. Hope this makes sense. Feel free to prioritise this as you see fit. Appreciate your time. Many thanks. S

Hi thetechnobear, sorry didn't mean to ignore your post, I just got caught up elsewhere. These are good ideas and I appreciate the feedback from your actual experience using the thing in this way. I see Aalto / Kaivo as limited in complexity on purpose, and I know you're sympathetic. However, adding modulation curves with a right-click on the input knob would not clutter things up. This could be another option like the ( + / * ) switch we were talking about.

Smuff, glad to hear you are another Pico + Aalto player! I'm not sure what you mean by the level module. level of gate module? In my experience Kaivo has a ton of dynamic range, which can be a challenge in making sounds. Maybe try using just a single-cycle wave in the granulator to get more of a "normal" synth setup for starters. Then add resonators and see what they do.

Since resonators are after the gate, maybe it seems like the gate is not having much effect. Use the sustain on the res. in addition to the gate and you will have more control.

Id agree i can get alot of dynamic range, especially on pad/lead type sounds.

one thing I am finding tough though is getting a snappy percussive sound.

lets say we have a sound we want to be percussive (like the koto in Kaivo),

but we want to retain, control over the rather than use the envelope (which we cannot use, as we don't have xVel, and without its a full volume)

instead we connect z to level , (this is pretty much the normal pattern id say for OSC/soundplane - no?)

this works really well for pads...

but if i play a percussive sounds, and quickly tap the keys its a little drawn out,
it doesnt sound percussive at all ... is this really because I cannot remove my finger quickly enough? (id have thought it would be possible at high refresh rates)

have you noticed the same on the soundplane, randy?

perhaps for these percussive sounds the only real way is with an envelope.

one other thought... perhaps initial velocity is still useful in these scenarios?
should kaivo/aalto calc this from Z (i.e. dz?) or would it be useful to send via t3d?
( i think i favour the former, as velocity is a 'derived value', and t3d is as close as possible to raw data)

EDIT: bit more playing, i used some processing in EigenD to compress the pressure input, an this does help alot. but what I noticed that even when I think eigenD is pretty much sending binary pressure, its not as 'sharp' as if I connect the gate input to the level.
(when i connect gate to level, and tap the keys, I get as percussive as with the envelope)

have to say in not totally convinced of my diagnosis though, as I found the more I played with using Z as input to level, the closer I got to percussive sound, and it some cases found I almost need to release a little slower than expected. (i.e theres perhaps a longer release on the env that I thought?)

anyway, no big deal... the truth is you get just get 'different' sounds, some of the 'percussion' sounds played in this way are very interesting :)
(and in non-percussive sounds, its never a problem... its feels very reactive/expressive)

I use an envelope for attack + direct pressure in a lot of situations. The envelope can have amplitude and attack time modulated with touch-on velocity.

When in t3d mode I believe the "x vel" setting on the envelope uses a "touch-on" velocity value calculated from the initial z.

In the collision of a finger with the Soundplane, or I'm guessing with the Eigenharp keys, there is not too much energy above 1kHz. So used as an envelope directly there's no way to get super sharp attacks.

I think of it this way: imagine tapping a metal bell with a drum stick. You get a nice sharp tap. Now try to reproduce that with a finger tap. We know from experience there's no way to get a sharp attack in that situation. What changed? Only the striking object. So we know that the finger's softness is dulling the sound, and therefore we can't expect to get sharper sounds out of a fingertip in any situation.

Now, in the physical world, sampling rates are very high :-) --- so, you could hit the bell with a ring or something to get the sharp attack back. The Soundplane has a 1kHz sampling rate, so that specific trick won't be of help. It's basically designed to convey any gesture you can make with a finger. At the present sampling rate, it's already using a huge amount of raw bandwidth to the sensors, and to up it to 10kHz or something would take a different and more expensive design.

This stuff never came up with MIDI keyboards. It's exciting that we now have controllers that are good enough to start experimenting with some of these issues!

thank for the explanation, that does seem to tie up with what I'm seeing.
I even tried using a stick on the eigenharp keys (not as suitable as with a soundplane!),
and indeed it improves it, also upping the sample rate helps too.

but in the end, I think your right envelopes are good for this, in the same way i guess we still use LFOs for modulation.

When in t3d mode I believe the "x vel" setting on the envelope uses a "touch-on" velocity value calculated from the initial z.
hmm this doesn't work for me at all, I've checked the messages sent, and there is definitely an initial pressure but I hear nothing. Ive always had to turn of xVel on all patches to get anything
… does it work on the soundplane?

BTW.. id say you might want to take a couple of Zs as he depending on data rate, at higher data rates, the first few Zs can be quite low.

as you say its an exciting area to explore… great that we have both the hardware and software to experiment :)